404 issue, guessing starter?
Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course when I go to
sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I hit the
starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long story
short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up going out and
getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart batteries were
shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that, since the
new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced like
crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the problem.
Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before this issue
(started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior) so I can't
imagine that the engine is locked up.
I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next weekend to
take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has died, but..
- Jeff G
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Crikey chaps, all that knowhow and to my mind you're missing the obvious (and easiest!) solution?!
The drive cog on the starter can sometimes jam against the fly wheel, so its taking current, the cog has been pushed out to engage on the wheel but not quite engaged and stays stuck there. The click being the solenoid closing to send the current.
If you did remove the starter for a bench test i would bet it would spin no problem, and on reinsertion would probably work fine again, since the chances of it jamming seem randomly thin. Two vehicles I've had have done it once each, but only once and worked fine from then on.
To unstick, you either put it in gear and rock the vehicle, ignition off of course, or, for the more technical among you, just hit it hard with something heavyish- a light tap or two with a club hammer.
This would seem the first thing to try even if it is a more complex problem!
Cheers
Jason
Sent from my Kitchen Worktop TM ;)
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:26:50 -0500
> From:
> To:
> Subject: [MOG] 404 issue, guessing starter?
>
> Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course when I go to
> sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
>
> I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I hit the
> starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long story
> short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up going out and
> getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart batteries were
> shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that, since the
> new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced like
> crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the problem.
> Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before this issue
> (started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior) so I can't
> imagine that the engine is locked up.
>
> I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next weekend to
> take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has died, but..
>
> - Jeff G
>
Cool tip - thanks!
On Feb 9, 2010, at 5:44 AM, jason ritchie wrote:
>
> Crikey chaps, all that knowhow and to my mind you're missing the
> obvious (and easiest!) solution?!
>
>
>
> The drive cog on the starter can sometimes jam against the fly
> wheel, so its taking current, the cog has been pushed out to engage
> on the wheel but not quite engaged and stays stuck there. The click
> being the solenoid closing to send the current.
>
> If you did remove the starter for a bench test i would bet it would
> spin no problem, and on reinsertion would probably work fine again,
> since the chances of it jamming seem randomly thin. Two vehicles
> I've had have done it once each, but only once and worked fine from
> then on.
>
> To unstick, you either put it in gear and rock the vehicle, ignition
> off of course, or, for the more technical among you, just hit it
> hard with something heavyish- a light tap or two with a club hammer.
>
> This would seem the first thing to try even if it is a more complex
> problem!
Alright, so an update for you guys.
Took the starter out and tested it. Spun fine, wasn't the starter.
Did not put the starter back in the truck, but pulled the truck with a
tractor. Stuck the truck in the highest gear, in 4wd, and tried to 'pull
start' it with a tractor. It just locked up the wheels, the motor wouldn't
turn. Didn't have time to stick the starter back in (limited time this
weekend with v-day)
So, from the surface it would seem that SOMETHING has caused the motor to
lock up? Unless because of the reduction hubs, etc, you can't pull start a
404 (I dont know, first time I've ever tried).
Should I be able to pull start a 404? And if so, then what the hell would
cause the engine that ran 2 weeks prior to seize?!
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Mike Prince wrote:
> Cool tip - thanks!
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2010, at 5:44 AM, jason ritchie wrote:
>
>
>> Crikey chaps, all that knowhow and to my mind you're missing the obvious
>> (and easiest!) solution?!
>>
>>
>>
>> The drive cog on the starter can sometimes jam against the fly wheel, so
>> its taking current, the cog has been pushed out to engage on the wheel but
>> not quite engaged and stays stuck there. The click being the solenoid
>> closing to send the current.
>>
>> If you did remove the starter for a bench test i would bet it would spin
>> no problem, and on reinsertion would probably work fine again, since the
>> chances of it jamming seem randomly thin. Two vehicles I've had have done it
>> once each, but only once and worked fine from then on.
>>
>> To unstick, you either put it in gear and rock the vehicle, ignition off
>> of course, or, for the more technical among you, just hit it hard with
>> something heavyish- a light tap or two with a club hammer.
>>
>> This would seem the first thing to try even if it is a more complex
>> problem!
>>
>
>
>
Sounds like your tranny might be seized up or stuck in two gears
simultaneously. Can the engine be turned at all with a wrench with the
clutch pressed in. What was the last thing you did between the time the
engine last ran and the time it seized up. Did the engine overheat last
time it ran? If so the head gasket may have failed and filled a
cylinder with water and locked it hydraulically. If you pull all the
plugs and it then turns over while spraying out water your question will
be solved.
yup, next time im in town (have to do this weekend at a time, haha, don't
live in the state with the truck anymore) I'll pull the plugs and see.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Serrano, Kai HS wrote:
> Sounds like your tranny might be seized up or stuck in two gears
> simultaneously. Can the engine be turned at all with a wrench with the
> clutch pressed in. What was the last thing you did between the time the
> engine last ran and the time it seized up. Did the engine overheat last
> time it ran? If so the head gasket may have failed and filled a
> cylinder with water and locked it hydraulically. If you pull all the
> plugs and it then turns over while spraying out water your question will
> be solved.
>
>
Alright, long time no update, but here it is. Had a chance to go and pull
the plugs. When I did... and looked in the first three cyls. looked like
they had...... get this..... corn in them.
I can't make this shit up.
I swear, it looked like little kernels of corn. I should have gotten some
double sided tape and pulled some out, but I didnt. And even with the plugs
out, we couldnt get it to turn pulling it with a tractor. So, corn. I don't
even see how that's possible. It's in a barn, sure.. And there are animals
around, sure.. But, corn? Is there anything that could look like corn that
would be more, well, on this planet of reality?
Anyhow, it's pretty certain the engine is locked. There is nothing else it
can be, is there? Rolling down the road, throw it into 6th gear, as soon as
I let off the clutch, everything locks up. Now, even if it WAS corn, I have
no idea how it seized the engine that bad, or how they got into multiple
cylinders (you'd think the valves would only allow 1 or 2, not the first
three)
So, anyone want a parts truck? Early 70's.. swiss.. axles lock fully, tranny
was fine other than a slight 5th gear whine. Frame is good, body has seen
better days, but isn't the worst i've seen by any means. :) And, I was
selling the truck running fine for 5500, had several people say they would
take it for that, but since the engine issue happened, I had to decline.
since you can get a new engine for 2k from expedition, im thinking 3k firm
gets ya a good parts truck or project truck..
- Jeff G
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
> yup, next time im in town (have to do this weekend at a time, haha, don't
> live in the state with the truck anymore) I'll pull the plugs and see.
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Serrano, Kai HS wrote:
>
>> Sounds like your tranny might be seized up or stuck in two gears
>> simultaneously. Can the engine be turned at all with a wrench with the
>> clutch pressed in. What was the last thing you did between the time the
>> engine last ran and the time it seized up. Did the engine overheat last
>> time it ran? If so the head gasket may have failed and filled a
>> cylinder with water and locked it hydraulically. If you pull all the
>> plugs and it then turns over while spraying out water your question will
>> be solved.
>>
>>
Jeff,
I hate to see someone throw in the towel without knowing more about what is
actually causing the problem. Your situation certainly is an interesting and
perplexing one. Joe has made the suggestion of trying some oil in the
cylinders. If you are lucky, it may free things up but I would be very
reluctant about trying to run that engine without a very thorough
inspection.
As Joe has noted, pulling the head is not a difficulty task although it is
most easily done with an assistant. The time you spend will be well worth
the education you receive in the process. A good Swiss 404 is nothing to
kick to the curb unless you are so fed up with it already that the thought
of spending another second or another penny is completely repulsive.
Where are you/your truck located? It may be time to call in some other local
404 owners to lend a hand if possible. If there is any way you can get a
photo of one of these little foreign bodies you have found, that would also
be of tremendous help.
Best of luck. Take care.
Jim Molloy
Waldersee Farm
http://www.northwestmogfest.com
http://www.volvo4x4.com
Jeff,
I had a 3 wheeler that locked up in outside storage. Turned out to be ants.
They carried enough debris into the cylinder that there wasn't room for the piston
to complete its cycle.
Mice, ants or whatever, sounds like you have a debris problem. The only cure is
to pull the head, clean things up, put it back together and get back Mogging.
The job is nowhere near as bad as it feels.
Vietnam Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: James Molloy
To: 'Mog Mailing List'
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [MOG] 404 issue, guessing starter?
Jeff,
I hate to see someone throw in the towel without knowing more about what is
actually causing the problem. Your situation certainly is an interesting and
perplexing one. Joe has made the suggestion of trying some oil in the
cylinders. If you are lucky, it may free things up but I would be very
reluctant about trying to run that engine without a very thorough
inspection.
As Joe has noted, pulling the head is not a difficulty task although it is
most easily done with an assistant. The time you spend will be well worth
the education you receive in the process. A good Swiss 404 is nothing to
kick to the curb unless you are so fed up with it already that the thought
of spending another second or another penny is completely repulsive.
Where are you/your truck located? It may be time to call in some other local
404 owners to lend a hand if possible. If there is any way you can get a
photo of one of these little foreign bodies you have found, that would also
be of tremendous help.
Best of luck. Take care.
Jim Molloy
Waldersee Farm
http://www.northwestmogfest.com
http://www.volvo4x4.com
Sounds like what I had inside my 404 heater. It had sat for who knows how
many years before I bought it and when I finally got everything working, I
tried the heater.
I got this really foul smell after a while and first thought it was the
blower motor going bad. After getting no heat, I took off the short lenght
of ducting from the heater to the duct and started poking around in there.
Turned the heater back on and the entire cab filled up with this awfull
smelling small chunks of debris. It took a good 5 minutes for it to clear.
It was everywhere!
Turns out it was some sort of critter nesting material. Chunks of
leaves,seeds,corn,sticks,foam,paper,acorns,all kinds of stuff.Luckily, no
dead critters.
It took me a whole day with the shop vac and air hose to clean it all out.
That was almost two years ago and I can still smell it a little when I run
the heater.
Part of the fun of owning a 404.
Rob.
1966 404.115 hardcab.
Haha, thanks for the advice guys.. The hard part is that I live in michigan,
mog lives in louisville, ky. I go down for weekends here an there, but
realistically only from friday night still sunday morning to see family,
etc. THAT is what makes it so difficult. I was selling the truck regardless.
If there is anyone near louisville that wants to make a saturday job with it
to help, I'd probably be inclined, but we'll see.
- Jeff G
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:12 PM, rob wrote:
> Sounds like what I had inside my 404 heater. It had sat for who knows how
> many years before I bought it and when I finally got everything working, I
> tried the heater.
> I got this really foul smell after a while and first thought it was the
> blower motor going bad. After getting no heat, I took off the short lenght
> of ducting from the heater to the duct and started poking around in there.
> Turned the heater back on and the entire cab filled up with this awfull
> smelling small chunks of debris. It took a good 5 minutes for it to clear.
> It was everywhere!
> Turns out it was some sort of critter nesting material. Chunks of
> leaves,seeds,corn,sticks,foam,paper,acorns,all kinds of stuff.Luckily, no
> dead critters.
> It took me a whole day with the shop vac and air hose to clean it all out.
> That was almost two years ago and I can still smell it a little when I run
> the heater.
> Part of the fun of owning a 404.
> Rob.
> 1966 404.115 hardcab.
>
>
Anyone have an idea what pump to add to my 66 404 so I can add my mile marker winch
Ty
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
Something must have crawled in the exhaust? The butter fly on the carb
would keep most critters out the intake side right?
Well all hope is still not lost. The manifolds come off easy to clean them
out. After that put a little motor oil in each cylider via the spark plug
whole, enough to soak the ring all the way around. That may loosen up the
piston to get them to turn. Might be able to suck out the crap
er... corn via the exhaust ports using a shop vac once the motor turns and
you can get the valves to open and close. Did you try removing the valve
cover and oiling the cam manually.
I recently rebuild my head and the valves in the head came unadjusted and
the cam WOULD NOT TURN. Some was because it was dry and other was some
valves were way tight. After lubricating I could turn it much easier.
Lastly pulling the head is about 1-2 hour job. Out and in in a day is
easy. With the head off it will be easier to clean and lubricate the piston
rings and see what it going on. Might need a $100 head gasket but most
local auto places should carry a head gasket for a 1970s 220S Sedan.
The only other place that can cause a motor to seaze up would be the main
bearings on the bottom but those are soaked in oil if the truck if filled
properly. Maybe drain and refil as who know what was living inside and
urinating in your motor!
If all else fails pour some butter down the carb and light a fire under the
motor and at least you'll have something to eat! POP POP POP
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
> Alright, long time no update, but here it is. Had a chance to go and pull
> the plugs. When I did... and looked in the first three cyls. looked like
> they had...... get this..... corn in them.
>
> I can't make this shit up.
>
> I swear, it looked like little kernels of corn. I should have gotten some
> double sided tape and pulled some out, but I didnt. And even with the plugs
> out, we couldnt get it to turn pulling it with a tractor. So, corn. I don't
> even see how that's possible. It's in a barn, sure.. And there are animals
> around, sure.. But, corn? Is there anything that could look like corn that
> would be more, well, on this planet of reality?
>
> Anyhow, it's pretty certain the engine is locked. There is nothing else it
> can be, is there? Rolling down the road, throw it into 6th gear, as soon as
> I let off the clutch, everything locks up. Now, even if it WAS corn, I have
> no idea how it seized the engine that bad, or how they got into multiple
> cylinders (you'd think the valves would only allow 1 or 2, not the first
> three)
>
> So, anyone want a parts truck? Early 70's.. swiss.. axles lock fully,
> tranny
> was fine other than a slight 5th gear whine. Frame is good, body has seen
> better days, but isn't the worst i've seen by any means. :) And, I was
> selling the truck running fine for 5500, had several people say they would
> take it for that, but since the engine issue happened, I had to decline.
> since you can get a new engine for 2k from expedition, im thinking 3k firm
> gets ya a good parts truck or project truck..
>
> - Jeff G
>
>
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Joe O'Bremski wrote:
> Something must have crawled in the exhaust? The butter fly on the carb
> would keep most critters out the intake side right?
Could be. Mice can get through some absurdly small openings, though.
It wouldn't take much slack, anywhere, to make a gap big enough for a
mouse to stash seeds.
In any event, your advice sounds good.
Kirk Haines
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
> Alright, long time no update, but here it is. Had a chance to go and pull
> the plugs. When I did... and looked in the first three cyls. looked like
> they had...... get this..... corn in them.
>
> I can't make this shit up.
>
> I swear, it looked like little kernels of corn. I should have gotten some
> double sided tape and pulled some out, but I didnt. And even with the plugs
> out, we couldnt get it to turn pulling it with a tractor. So, corn. I don't
> even see how that's possible. It's in a barn, sure.. And there are animals
> around, sure.. But, corn? Is there anything that could look like corn that
> would be more, well, on this planet of reality?
Mice.
If they found a route through the air cleaner hose into the carb, they
could have stuffed crap up in the deep, dark innards. The intake
manifold might have seemed like an ideal larder.
Kirk Haines
Hi, everyone!
I am brand new to the world of the Unimog. I just bought a 1970 404S Swiss
troop carrier. I had it hauled home and have gotten it running. I'm
looking forward to many hours of "bonding" time.
Here's the world's most basic question. I'm 5'7" with a 30-inch inseam on a
tall day. I'm in great shape if round is a shape. How the heck do I get
into this thing? I know, just open the door and hop in. I do have the step
on the front wheels. I'm just not sure how to most easily climb in from
there. The deck plate on top of the fender does not seem to offer any
assistance.
All Right, stop laughing! All of you!
Thanks in advance!
Gayle L Linke, EA
A Round TUIT, LLC
4208 N I-35
Denton, TX 76207
(940) 566-9010
i have no left arm to pull my 200lbs carcass up, so i had steps welded in front
of the spare tire, where the commercial steps go. for 300 dollars i'd recommend
them.
left foot on grate on wheel if i am really tired, else right foot on welded
step, somewhere at the height of the spare middle rim, then left leg/foot on
fender then right leg swing and strong push with left leg, splash, into the
well.
i hold onto the drivers side gun holder.
i find the passenger side more clumsy, so my wife doesnt drive.
i'll send you pix
fred
Great idea love to see pics
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
Thanks to all who replied. It seems my problem was that I thought that the
handle on the dash should be in the correct position. Now I grab the
windshield frame with my left hand and the edge of the cab above the door
striker with my right and hoist myself up.
Thanks again and I hope I provided a good laugh to the group.
Gayle L Linke, EA
A Round TUIT, LLC
4208 N I-35
Denton, TX 76207
(940) 566-9010
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Gayle L Linke, EA
wrote:
> Hi, everyone!
>
> I am brand new to the world of the Unimog. I just bought a 1970 404S Swiss
> troop carrier. I had it hauled home and have gotten it running. I'm
> looking forward to many hours of "bonding" time.
>
> Here's the world's most basic question. I'm 5'7" with a 30-inch inseam on a
> tall day. I'm in great shape if round is a shape. How the heck do I get
> into this thing? I know, just open the door and hop in. I do have the step
> on the front wheels. I'm just not sure how to most easily climb in from
> there. The deck plate on top of the fender does not seem to offer any
> assistance.
Yeah. The round, textured extension around the middle of the front
wheels is a step.
Step on it with your left foot. Reach up and grab the handle mounted
on the dash with your left hand.
Step and pull, then reach your right knee up onto the bottom of the
door area and slide yourself on into there.
Someone (I forget who, offhand), had some really nice aftermarket
steps that he made which would bolt onto your truck. I'm sure he's on
this list somewhere, and might have a set still for sale, too.
Kirk Haines
I believe that was:
Quote "Mike and list,
They are $300 a set with all hardware and backing plates. They're similar to
the factory 406 step located right behind the front tire but with a couple
improvements. I've got a three-page description with linked pics that I will
send you and anyone else that is interested. Send a message to
if you'd like to know more. I don't want to spam the whole
list with it. :O)
David Carroll
Experimental Engineering"
-Trev
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Kirk Haines wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Gayle L Linke, EA
> wrote:
> > Hi, everyone!
> >
> > I am brand new to the world of the Unimog. I just bought a 1970 404S
> Swiss
> > troop carrier. I had it hauled home and have gotten it running. I'm
> > looking forward to many hours of "bonding" time.
> >
> > Here's the world's most basic question. I'm 5'7" with a 30-inch inseam
> on a
> > tall day. I'm in great shape if round is a shape. How the heck do I get
> > into this thing? I know, just open the door and hop in. I do have the
> step
> > on the front wheels. I'm just not sure how to most easily climb in from
> > there. The deck plate on top of the fender does not seem to offer any
> > assistance.
>
> Yeah. The round, textured extension around the middle of the front
> wheels is a step.
>
> Step on it with your left foot. Reach up and grab the handle mounted
> on the dash with your left hand.
>
> Step and pull, then reach your right knee up onto the bottom of the
> door area and slide yourself on into there.
>
> Someone (I forget who, offhand), had some really nice aftermarket
> steps that he made which would bolt onto your truck. I'm sure he's on
> this list somewhere, and might have a set still for sale, too.
>
>
> Kirk Haines
>
>
Ohh yeah, you should be able to push start, pull start, hand crank, how
ever you want to spin it :) In 6th gear that thing should spin by hand
by lifting one rear tire and turning the tire. And that is while the
spark plugs are in.
Before you do some serious damage, I'd pull the plugs. Make sure it's
not a head gasket leak and caused it to hydro lock or leaky carb hydro
locked it full of gas (not as likely as with a mechanical pump, the
motor would have to be spinning to get that much gas to the carb to over
flow somehow and fill the intake). With an electric pump I could see
that, especially a high pressure fuel injection electric pump (again
don't ask why I know, Rubicon '07, trail repair, DOH).
Next is check the timing chain. If it broke or jumped teeth because
it's worn the valves maybe contacting the pistons if the cam and crank
are not in alignment.
Lastly, possible water contamination in the oil causing the cam or crank
bushings to rust and seeze up. Drain the oil and see if it's good.
I have an intermittent contact on my battery disconnect under the seat.
Sometimes I get the same "click" when I try to start my truck and if I
wiggle the switch key it'll start right up.
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
> Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course when I go to
> sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
>
> I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I hit the
> starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long story
> short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up going out and
> getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart batteries were
> shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that, since the
> new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced like
> crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the problem.
> Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before this
> issue
> (started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior) so I can't
> imagine that the engine is locked up.
>
> I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next weekend to
> take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has died, but..
>
> - Jeff G
>
At the time I was out at the truck, I only had primitive tools (hammer,
wrenches). I'm an EE, so I need to take a voltmeter with me this weekend.
Daniel, I don't think it would be a coil issue as that wouldn't keep the
motor from spinning, correct?
Craig, what you said makes me think a bit. Not used to vehicles with a key
AND a starter switch, so help me out here guys.
>From memory, the positive battery terminal goes to a switch located approx.
under the drivers seat area (under the truck). I assume that this is the
disconnect you're referring to? And from there I am assuming it goes to the
starter solonoid?
If that's correct, then both the solenoid AND the 'under seat' solonoid are
failure points before the starter. And the under seat solonoid is controlled
by.... the ignition key I assume? with the starter solenoid being controlled
by the momentary push button.
However, due to the arcing I saw at the battery, that would lead me to
believe that both the under seat and the starter solenoid are working, but
Mike, you make some good points. I'll take a voltmeter with me this weekend
and try to track it down.
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Craig wrote:
> I have an intermittent contact on my battery disconnect under the seat.
> Sometimes I get the same "click" when I try to start my truck and if I
> wiggle the switch key it'll start right up.
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
>
> > Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course when I go
> to
> > sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
> >
> > I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I hit the
> > starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long story
> > short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up going out
> and
> > getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart batteries were
> > shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that, since the
> > new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced like
> > crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the
> problem.
> > Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before this
> > issue
> > (started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior) so I
> can't
> > imagine that the engine is locked up.
> >
> > I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next weekend to
> > take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has died,
> but..
> >
> > - Jeff G
> >
the under seat switch is a battery disconnect, uses an L shaped removable
"key".
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
> At the time I was out at the truck, I only had primitive tools (hammer,
> wrenches). I'm an EE, so I need to take a voltmeter with me this weekend.
>
> Daniel, I don't think it would be a coil issue as that wouldn't keep the
> motor from spinning, correct?
>
> Craig, what you said makes me think a bit. Not used to vehicles with a key
> AND a starter switch, so help me out here guys.
>
> >From memory, the positive battery terminal goes to a switch located
> approx.
> under the drivers seat area (under the truck). I assume that this is the
> disconnect you're referring to? And from there I am assuming it goes to the
> starter solonoid?
>
> If that's correct, then both the solenoid AND the 'under seat' solonoid are
> failure points before the starter. And the under seat solonoid is
> controlled
> by.... the ignition key I assume? with the starter solenoid being
> controlled
> by the momentary push button.
>
> However, due to the arcing I saw at the battery, that would lead me to
> believe that both the under seat and the starter solenoid are working, but
> Mike, you make some good points. I'll take a voltmeter with me this weekend
> and try to track it down.
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Craig wrote:
>
> > I have an intermittent contact on my battery disconnect under the seat.
> > Sometimes I get the same "click" when I try to start my truck and if I
> > wiggle the switch key it'll start right up.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
> >
> > > Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course when I
> go
> > to
> > > sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
> > >
> > > I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I hit
> the
> > > starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long story
> > > short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up going out
> > and
> > > getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart batteries
> were
> > > shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that, since
> the
> > > new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced
> like
> > > crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the
> > problem.
> > > Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before this
> > > issue
> > > (started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior) so I
> > can't
> > > imagine that the engine is locked up.
> > >
> > > I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next weekend
> to
> > > take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has died,
> > but..
> > >
> > > - Jeff G
> > >
The under seat switch is also on the ground side. So it wouldn't
count for continuity tests between the push button starter and the
solenoid.
Test the full loops:
1) Is there low resistance between the case of the starter and the
battery ground? (assuming the under seat disconnect is "on" )
2) Is there low resistance between the starter solenoid terminal and
the battery positive when both the ignition key is in the on position
AND the starter button is depressed?
3) Is there low resistance between the starter positive terminal and
the battery positive terminal?
Good luck!
- Mike
On Feb 8, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Craig wrote:
> the under seat switch is a battery disconnect, uses an L shaped
> removable
> "key".
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Jeff Gordon
> wrote:
>
>> At the time I was out at the truck, I only had primitive tools
>> (hammer,
>> wrenches). I'm an EE, so I need to take a voltmeter with me this
>> weekend.
>>
>> Daniel, I don't think it would be a coil issue as that wouldn't
>> keep the
>> motor from spinning, correct?
>>
>> Craig, what you said makes me think a bit. Not used to vehicles
>> with a key
>> AND a starter switch, so help me out here guys.
>>
>>> From memory, the positive battery terminal goes to a switch located
>> approx.
>> under the drivers seat area (under the truck). I assume that this
>> is the
>> disconnect you're referring to? And from there I am assuming it
>> goes to the
>> starter solonoid?
>>
>> If that's correct, then both the solenoid AND the 'under seat'
>> solonoid are
>> failure points before the starter. And the under seat solonoid is
>> controlled
>> by.... the ignition key I assume? with the starter solenoid being
>> controlled
>> by the momentary push button.
>>
>> However, due to the arcing I saw at the battery, that would lead me
>> to
>> believe that both the under seat and the starter solenoid are
>> working, but
>> Mike, you make some good points. I'll take a voltmeter with me this
>> weekend
>> and try to track it down.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Craig wrote:
>>
>>> I have an intermittent contact on my battery disconnect under the
>>> seat.
>>> Sometimes I get the same "click" when I try to start my truck and
>>> if I
>>> wiggle the switch key it'll start right up.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jeff Gordon
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course
>>>> when I
>> go
>>> to
>>>> sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
>>>>
>>>> I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I
>>>> hit
>> the
>>>> starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long
>>>> story
>>>> short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up
>>>> going out
>>> and
>>>> getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart
>>>> batteries
>> were
>>>> shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that,
>>>> since
>> the
>>>> new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced
>> like
>>>> crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the
>>> problem.
>>>> Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before
>>>> this
>>>> issue
>>>> (started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior)
>>>> so I
>>> can't
>>>> imagine that the engine is locked up.
>>>>
>>>> I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next
>>>> weekend
>> to
>>>> take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has
>>>> died,
>>> but..
>>>>
>>>> - Jeff G
>>>>
Oh, I had totally forgotten about that!
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Craig wrote:
> the under seat switch is a battery disconnect, uses an L shaped removable
> "key".
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
>
> > At the time I was out at the truck, I only had primitive tools (hammer,
> > wrenches). I'm an EE, so I need to take a voltmeter with me this weekend.
> >
> > Daniel, I don't think it would be a coil issue as that wouldn't keep the
> > motor from spinning, correct?
> >
> > Craig, what you said makes me think a bit. Not used to vehicles with a
> key
> > AND a starter switch, so help me out here guys.
> >
> > >From memory, the positive battery terminal goes to a switch located
> > approx.
> > under the drivers seat area (under the truck). I assume that this is the
> > disconnect you're referring to? And from there I am assuming it goes to
> the
> > starter solonoid?
> >
> > If that's correct, then both the solenoid AND the 'under seat' solonoid
> are
> > failure points before the starter. And the under seat solonoid is
> > controlled
> > by.... the ignition key I assume? with the starter solenoid being
> > controlled
> > by the momentary push button.
> >
> > However, due to the arcing I saw at the battery, that would lead me to
> > believe that both the under seat and the starter solenoid are working,
> but
> > Mike, you make some good points. I'll take a voltmeter with me this
> weekend
> > and try to track it down.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Craig wrote:
> >
> > > I have an intermittent contact on my battery disconnect under the seat.
> > > Sometimes I get the same "click" when I try to start my truck and if I
> > > wiggle the switch key it'll start right up.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jeff Gordon
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course when I
> > go
> > > to
> > > > sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
> > > >
> > > > I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I hit
> > the
> > > > starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long
> story
> > > > short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up going
> out
> > > and
> > > > getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart batteries
> > were
> > > > shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that, since
> > the
> > > > new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced
> > like
> > > > crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the
> > > problem.
> > > > Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before
> this
> > > > issue
> > > > (started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior) so I
> > > can't
> > > > imagine that the engine is locked up.
> > > >
> > > > I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next weekend
> > to
> > > > take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has died,
> > > but..
> > > >
> > > > - Jeff G
> > > >
I pull started my 404 with my 74 VW bus and even broke loose the two seized
cylinders. Sounds like you have a more solid failure?
On Feb 15, 2010 9:22 AM, "Jeff Gordon" wrote:
Alright, so an update for you guys.
Took the starter out and tested it. Spun fine, wasn't the starter.
Did not put the starter back in the truck, but pulled the truck with a
tractor. Stuck the truck in the highest gear, in 4wd, and tried to 'pull
start' it with a tractor. It just locked up the wheels, the motor wouldn't
turn. Didn't have time to stick the starter back in (limited time this
weekend with v-day)
So, from the surface it would seem that SOMETHING has caused the motor to
lock up? Unless because of the reduction hubs, etc, you can't pull start a
404 (I dont know, first time I've ever tried).
Should I be able to pull start a 404? And if so, then what the hell would
cause the engine that ran 2 weeks prior to seize?!
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Mike Prince wrote:
> Cool tip - thanks!
>
>
...
I had similar issues based on your description although it could be something totally different. My brand new coil was defective and eventually recalled. I had converted to a civilian electronics setup so changed the plugs, wires, new points although I have since replaced those with a Pertronix. For the new coil, I have a Bosch Blue(Brazillian model) and am using a Pertronix Flamethrower, both of which work great. This may be of some value or maybe not.
Good luck
This is really basic advice, but have you tried the following?
1) With batteries hooked up, see if you have positive voltage at the
power lead at the starter. For the voltmeter ground try using both
the engine, and also the chassis.
2) Assuming you have power, you can always short the solenoid to
positive and see if the starter spins up. WARNING: make sure the
vehicle is in neutral for this!!!!
3) If the starter doesn't spin when it has good power, then it's
probably the starter. To make double sure you can pull the starter
and bench test it again.
4) If the starter did spin when shorting, then you probably have an
electrical problem somewhere between the starter button and that
starter solenoid, so track that down.
NOTE: I haven't actually done this on a mog, but other typical 12v
autos, so I can only hope it's correct.
Thanks,
Mike
On Feb 8, 2010, at 10:26 AM, Jeff Gordon wrote:
> Alright, my mog has been trouble free for years, and of course when
> I go to
> sell it, gives me issues (I guess it's telling me something).
>
> I tried to start my mog last weekend, and it went 'click' when I hit
> the
> starter. Did not turn over, sounded like low battery to me. Long story
> short, ended up charging batteries, same issue, and ended up going
> out and
> getting a few new batteries thinking maybe the old walmart batteries
> were
> shot, and still, same story. It's pulling current, I know that,
> since the
> new batteries I hooked up a little loose the first try and it arced
> like
> crazy on the terminal post, so I can't imagine the solonoid is the
> problem.
> Also, the truck started and ran just fine literally a week before
> this issue
> (started it up just to make sure everything moved a week prior) so I
> can't
> imagine that the engine is locked up.
>
> I'm out of town from my mog, so I will have to wait till next
> weekend to
> take a look, but, ideas? My only guess would be the starter has
> died, but..
>
> - Jeff G
>